It seems St. Thomas only proved that God existence is not self-evident on a strong sense. Maybe think of the result of mathematical calculations; if X + Y were *really* possibly Z, wouldn't it have to really be Z after all? Union with God belongs substantially to all souls in a state of grace, but it is in a special manner the distinguishing characteristic of those in the unitive way or in the state of the perfect. My version seems to be able to destroy more effectively any reverse ontological proof parasitical on my version. 14. New York: Robert Appleton Company. attractions of sensual pleasure and repugnance to acts known to be in conformity to the will of God. and the middle ground natural law understanding of the state. certain extent, the revolt of life against science, or Can't say much about S5 right now but I recommend you to look at the entailment and try to understand why people accept such axioms and their consequences. Either way, we live in the light of a god (true God or idol). If interpreted to mean that we cannot reason about a Maximally Great Being and see the relevant entailment it would involve, I think Aquinas's objection fails, and the response works. Another reason is that it is difficult for the premise “at least one logically possible world exists in which there is no unconditioned entity” to be shown to be plausible, while it is easy for the premise “at least one logically possible world exists in which an unconditioned entity exists” to be explained to be plausible. It includes aridities, dissipation of mind, weariness, and disgust in the exercises of piety; and it is often experienced by beginners in the practice of mental prayer. What's getting to be more impressive than the philosophical content of Dr. Feser's blog is the quality of Golden Age comic references...and that's saying something. Though instances of free choice with only one possible outcome would trace back and to previous choices that did have PAP. Reasonable - thank you for your reply!An unconditioned entity is not an entity that exists in some world or other, it is an entity that necessarily exists in all possible worlds. Do you find that solves the problem? On Descartes version: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/descartes-ontological/Is way better that what i heard, really. As shown in my original thread, an unconditioned entity’s existence in the world of logical possibilities entails its existence in the real world, WHICH WOULD BE EQUIVALENT, IN A ROUNDABOUT WAY, make it logically impossible for there to be no an unconditioned entity (in the real world or any logical world).Such an roundabout way is another way to show it is false for Statement 2 to say “it is logically possible for there to be no unconditioned being”.There are thus at least two separate pathways that showed Statement 2 to be wrong. The vast majority of philosophers now accept that the argument works, the only issue is with the possibility premise - how to show that a necessary being is possible. Hi Walter,For someone to argue that a brute fact is possible, he would need to set up an explicit or implicit premise that involves this idea:Premise: It is a logical possibility for there to exist a world where there exists no Unconditioned Entity.Such a premise is false/unsound because such a premise entails the contradiction that “an Unconditioned Entity, whose existence is unconditioned on any condition and hence would be an entity that exists regardless of whatever conditions are present or absent in any world, somehow failed to exist in a certain world under certain conditions”.Every premise that you set up involving the absence of an unconditioned entity would entail the above contradiction.Since every such premise entails the above contradiction, it is logically impossible for there to exist any situation or any world of any condition for an unconditioned entity not to exist.Cheers!johannes hui, Hi Anonymous,You said “So what it breaks down to is that in the ontological consideration, the equivalence is in that one can deny that God is possible and affirm that God is possible and thus the argument reaches a stalemate.”See my reply to Walter. I myself take this possibility to be metaphysical. completely independently of him. (c) The red paint’s existence is CONTINUOUSLY dependent on the existence of every type of entities in the series, just as the existence of your image in the mirror is continuously dependent on your existence in front of the mirror. If a mathematical result is possible, it must actually be the case. There is no explanation why a conditioned entity can exist despite the conditions that its existence requires is unfulfilled or absent. Expressed thus, the conclusion does not follow. We can, of course, try to associate the phrase "a being than which none greater can be imagined" with more familiar finite concepts, but these finite concepts are so far from being an adequate description of God, that it is fair to say they don't help us to get a detailed idea of God.Nevertheless, the success of the argument doesn't depend on our having a complete understanding of the concept of a being than which none greater can be conceived. Many of the other mystical favors, such as ecstasies, visions, locutions, etc., may be found, by way of exception, in the less advanced stages of the spiritual life. recognized them as such, "Science is the compass of life; but it is not life itself....What I preach then is, to a I guess a partial but *sufficient* understanding may be *sufficient* to do the job *sufficiently* well.3. I was thinking that we could do something like that, since discussing Stage 2 of, say, Leibniz contigency argument show us that God existence has to be necessary, so we could "get" that His existence is self-evident, even if we don't understand His nature directly, just by thinking about what a MGB would need to have. Only someone as stupid as a socialist would think Catholics can completely and utterly ignore what popes continuously teach. So statement 2 entails an intrinsic contradiction, and is thus false.Putting the above in Modus Tollens form:Premise 1: If “it is logically possible for there to be no unconditioned being” is true, then “there is at least one logical condition or one set of logical conditions that affects the existence of an unconditioned entity, whose existence is impossible to be affected by any kind of logical conditions”.Premise 2: “There is at least one logical condition or one set of logical conditions that affects the existence of an unconditioned entity, whose existence is impossible to be affected by any kind of logical conditions” is false, because it is an intrinsic contradiction.Conclusion: Therefore, the statement “it is logically possible for there to be no unconditioned being” is false. Originally titled "Dieu et l'état", Bakunin intended it to be part of the second portion to a larger work named "The Knouto-Germanic Empire and the Social Revolution" (Knouto-Germanic Empire is in reference to a treaty betwixt Russia and Germany at the time), but the work was never completed. If is the first, the argument works, if it is the second, is just word play.Normally, this fear of mine is not a problem, we can know a lot about most essenses just a priori, but the divine essence is so unlike everything else that we can at most know what it is not, so could we a priori understand enough to the argument to work? In fact, this seemed like St. Anselm idea, for he admited that we could not understand God completely but defended that we could understand enough for the argument to work when Gaunilo tried to use this epistemological objection.About the second interpretation, i think the reverse ontological argument is not equal in power to the original, for the idea of a MGB is logically possible, so i think the burden of proof is on the one who thinks such a being can't exist. Say, in such a hypothetical “brute fact” world there is a conditioned entity X whose existence is CONTINUOUSLY conditional on three conditions A1, B1 and C1. Every such series of CONTINUOUS dependency would terminate in an unconditioned entity because an unconditioned entity does not require any conditions for existence and hence once such a series that arrives at an unconditioned entity would ends there. Since the last entity exists now (see Premise 2), the last entity’s existence is not conditional on any condition at all. Of course, he could think about it and see that having color and extension are caracteristics of what is material, so the soul has none of it, in this way understanding what being immaterial implies while not reading the meaning of the word or asking someone. PAP is typically present by not necessarily so. cit. If such an unconditioned entity does not exist in the real world, that means in the real world, the presence or absence of certain condition(s) has managed to prevent such an unconditioned entity from existing.
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